Ford Shelby GT500 Forum banner

1 - 20 of 26 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
19 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I have a list of parts that I am wanting for my 5.4 4 valve.

-Stock M122 Supercharger
-Stock lower intake
-Stock heat exchanger

-stock GT500 Cams

-ECU and wiring harness

- 2010 to 2012 Blue Valve Covers

- exhaust manifold

I am building a 5.4 out of a 2004 Navigator to put in my Mustang that is currently a 4.0L so there are many things for me to do and this list is just to get started with the build. Any help would be appreciated. Including maybe a build recipe from someone in the community who has done the same.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
66 Posts
I have a list of parts that I am wanting for my 5.4 4 valve.

-Stock M122 Supercharger as well as the lower intake

-stock GT500 Cams

-ECU and wiring harness

- 2010 to 2012 Blue Valve Covers

- exhaust manifold

I am building a 5.4 out of a 2004 Navigator to put in my Mustang. Any help would be appreciated.
I have the Cams and the exhaust manifolds and Lower Balancer. Tons of oem suspension as well now.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
188 Posts
i am NOT criticizing just curious so don't miss interpret my comments..

the way i read the post is you want to use a GT500 intake on a pair of "C" heads off a navagator?

i thought about doing the same thing about a year ago..
i have been lead to believe that welding and grinding is required to do this. yes the intake ports are similar between the GT500 and the C heads. it's not a exact match.
i would be interested in reading about this swap.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
19 Posts
Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
Its a very good question. I was under the impression the ports on the nav motor are smaller but the bolt patterns match up. I would be sending the heads out to be port matched to have the heads brought to as close to the shelby spec as possible if this was the case. I've reached out to modular headshop asking if this can be done. The guys there seem like excellent pros to ask but have not heard back as of yet. If it is too much work ill start looking for gt500 heads.

I'm also hoping someone on here might know. I have two motors I'm looking at locally that I will be pulling the trigger on soon. My post is kind of a prep to see whats out there and a way to prioritize what I should get first.

The original motor in the car is a 4.0 so matching the heads to the intake might be the easier of the mods for this build 🤣
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
148 Posts
The compression on the Navigator may be to high for a blower application. You need to check that out before spending all the time and money. Also if you have to shave the heads you may need thicker head gaskets to keep compression at the proper level.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
19 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
The compression on the Navigator may be to high for a blower application. You need to check that out before spending all the time and money. Also if you have to shave the heads you may need thicker head gaskets to keep compression at the proper level.
Thats interesting, 9.5:1 is the Navigator stock compression according to the first source I looked up. I'll have to start researching if it can take boost at all. This will be all for nothing if the Nav intake can't be matched to the shelby lower. Do you know anything about matching the nav heads up?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
188 Posts
i myself wouldn't worry about the higher compression. if you ask me the higher compression is a good thing. i have a forged motor in my car, 08 bullitt with DOB, Department Of Boost, intake on a 3V 4.6 motor. 1st gen TVS 2.3. i run 10.25 to1 pistons with 20lbs boost on pump 93 octane with a really conservative tune without trouble. the only thing i would worry about is where the top ring groove is and having it get to hot from boost.
i hope you will be upgrading the stock rods before you add to much boost.

i will have to get off my lazy rear and dig out my 9 thread "C" heads off a 4.6 04 Aviator motor i bought dirt cheap a few months ago, should be the same head as on the Navigator. i am pretty sure a friend picked up a GT500 intake recently.i will have to ask him when i see him on Saturday. i also have to find my HF inspection camera. i could see how things match up.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
19 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
i myself wouldn't worry about the higher compression. if you ask me the higher compression is a good thing. i have a forged motor in my car, 08 bullitt with DOB, Department Of Boost, intake on a 3V 4.6 motor. 1st gen TVS 2.3. i run 10.25 to1 pistons with 20lbs boost on pump 93 octane with a really conservative tune without trouble. the only thing i would worry about is where the top ring groove is and having it get to hot from boost.
i hope you will be upgrading the stock rods before you add to much boost.

i will have to get off my lazy rear and dig out my 9 thread "C" heads off a 4.6 04 Aviator motor i bought dirt cheap a few months ago, should be the same head as on the Navigator. i am pretty sure a friend picked up a GT500 intake recently.i will have to ask him when i see him on Saturday. i also have to find my HF inspection camera. i could see how things match up.
That would be awesome if you are able to do that. After it was brought to light that the shelby lower might not fit the nav head I came across Department of Boost hoping they made an intake to fit the Nav head to the m122 but it appears they do not. I'm hoping that means it can be done without any big extra mods. For now my only plans are to reach stock gt500 numbers. If the motor I end up with is in not so great shape ill upgrade everything before boost.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
188 Posts
i am very active with DOB and developments of new intakes. there is a facebook DOB page that has the latest info if you are interested.

DOB HAD plans to make a 5.4 intake for "C" heads. the person doing field research and install troubleshooting ended up with $$$ troubles and the plans for this intake was put on permanent hold, AKA ended up in the scrap bin. it MIGHT be resurrected but this is extremely doubtful. maybe you could try contacting jason thru facebook and he might have more info on port differences between "C: heads and GT500 heads.
after begging for several years, DOB newest intake is for a 5.4 3V intake.it's being designed to work on F150 more than mustangs. it should easily install on mustangs so this shouldn't be a problem. there is actually more motor room under hood on a mustang than there is on a F150.
he is now taking non refundable deposits for it and has a 100% promise of being built. if i understand correctly they are being machined at the CNC shop right now. if you want one contact DOB and you probably can still get one as of now. there will probably be a only one time run of these intakes as of now.


i am not that familiar with navigator motors. but my understanding none of them have a forged crank and they have weak powdered rods and only safe to about 500 hp.
in my opinion if you are going to build one doing it right the first time will be actually cheaper than repairing a busted motor and doing it right the second time.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
19 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
i am very active with DOB and developments of new intakes. there is a facebook DOB page that has the latest info if you are interested.

DOB HAD plans to make a 5.4 intake for "C" heads. the person doing field research and install troubleshooting ended up with $$$ troubles and the plans for this intake was put on permanent hold, AKA ended up in the scrap bin. it MIGHT be resurrected but this is extremely doubtful. maybe you could try contacting jason thru facebook and he might have more info on port differences between "C: heads and GT500 heads.
after begging for several years, DOB newest intake is for a 5.4 3V intake.it's being designed to work on F150 more than mustangs. it should easily install on mustangs so this shouldn't be a problem. there is actually more motor room under hood on a mustang than there is on a F150.
he is now taking non refundable deposits for it and has a 100% promise of being built. if i understand correctly they are being machined at the CNC shop right now. if you want one contact DOB and you probably can still get one as of now. there will probably be a only one time run of these intakes as of now.


i am not that familiar with navigator motors. but my understanding none of them have a forged crank and they have weak powdered rods and only safe to about 500 hp.
in my opinion if you are going to build one doing it right the first time will be actually cheaper than repairing a busted motor and doing it right the second time.
Thank you I will be contacting them. Any info you can bring is very much appreciated. I agree with you on doing it right. Allthough I am aiming for a max of 500hp I still want this motor to last. I am very new to building a motor. I enjoy learning new things constantly. Been even thinking about taking on learning how to do some fabrication myself to solve the issue if the heads can not be port matched. Either way any info you can get from your nav head and your friends lower intake is appreciated and I look forward to getting in contact with DOB and seeing what they can offer.
 

·
Premium Member
2012/2013 Hybrid
Joined
·
7,153 Posts
Stock truck rods are not going to live long in that combination, even with a M-122. Have you considered a centrifugal with what you have? I have an Allen supercharger that I had on my Expedition that used an M-90, but it had the 2v heads. I'm sure those heads are a dime a dozen, and there are aftermarket versions of that head available that would bolt onto that short block. One of these days I'm going to put it on ebay.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
19 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
Stock truck rods are not going to live long in that combination, even with a M-122. Have you considered a centrifugal with what you have? I have an Allen supercharger that I had on my Expedition that used an M-90, but it had the 2v heads. I'm sure those heads are a dime a dozen, and there are aftermarket versions of that head available that would bolt onto that short block. One of these days I'm going to put it on ebay.
The goal was to replicate the shelby motor. Always wanted a Shelby and this is my way of compromising without the price tag. Im even going as far as eventually throwing a TR6060 in it down the road. First order is to just get the motor built and prep the car. The car currently has a 4.0 in it so there is alot of work to be done.
 

·
Premium Member
2012/2013 Hybrid
Joined
·
7,153 Posts
I followed a thread several years ago where a guy bought a 5.4 out of a wrecked Shelby and put it in an F-150 with a 4R75W. It was a crazy machine. There's lots of guys that build these engines and you might look around for the GT500 rods. They're marginal in the GT500 when modded, but likely twice as strong as the rods used in the truck engines. Compression ratio should not be an issue. The GT500 cams are not that special either. In fact they are very mild. I wouldn't be surprised if they're not what's already in your Navi motor.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
188 Posts
GOOD news....i talked to my friend. he has a lower intake.

REALLY BAD NEWS..
.we did a little googling and found this thread on S197forum. he did exactly what you are trying to do in Aug 2014. he updated it in Aug 2015......
you might have to sign up to read this.

a copy paste from the thread.
I am running regular Cobra C heads on my 5.4, which have lower intake flanges compared to a GT500 head. So after it was "possible" to get the GT500 intake to lower into place, I began taking measurements and mocking up for spacers. FYI, this IS NOT able to be done with Navigator heads, since the "bathtub" of the intake manifold will not fit down in the valley with those fat port flanges. I needed 3/4" to clear various parts of the timing cover and so on. So, I bought 3/4" 6061 slabs online and traced gaskets and began drilling. After about 20 hours of drilling, burring and tootsie rolling, I had my adapter plates. Man, using a CNC and CAD would have been nice!
another copy paste about required parts.
I can't use the GT500 valve covers, since I don't have the GT500's smaller timing chain sprockets.
translated "C" heads use larger timing chain cam gears over GT500 heads.

some of it doesn't make sense. i have always thought that the Navigator used the exact same heads as other "C" heads.
either way it looks like you MUST MAKE, or have some made, 3/4" adapter plates to make them work together.


if you want my OPINION. you would be better off $$$ wise, selling your "C" heads with valve covers. then buying a pair of cheap used 3V heads and valve covers. from my observations you should have $$ left over.
then buying DOB 5.4 intake and going that route. the intake is mildly $$$, $2900. but comparing it to buying a GT500 lower intake and other specific parts it would be cheaper going the 3V route.
if you do this or a similar one i would HIGHLY RECOMMEND buying a Gt500 oil pump or better yet a pair of HD oil pump gears. also recommend buying a lower timing chain gear also. with supercharged motors these STOCK non supercharged motor parts like to shatter and destroy motors at the worst times possible.

YES i understand the entire idea of your planned build is to make a budget GT500 look alike using 4V "C" head so it looks like a GT500 motor.

keep in mind using the 5.4 3V intake will give you MUCH better intake air cooling over the GT500 parts. with cooler intake air temps you can make more power at lower boost levels. also buying 3V engine harness will be much cheaper and probably easier to find than buying a GT500 one.
i am just throwing out the suggestion. it's your build so the decision is yours.

here is a pic of my 4.6 motor to help with the decision on look. when i upgrade to my stoker 5.4L+ motor i won't be able to use the strut brace..
YES i have that large and ugly alternator sticking out like a sore thumb. i have read others on the DOB facebook page have removed the A/C compressor and installed the alternator in it's place. i myself like the A/C over the alternator look.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
19 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
GOOD news....i talked to my friend. he has a lower intake.

REALLY BAD NEWS..
.we did a little googling and found this thread on S197forum. he did exactly what you are trying to do in Aug 2014. he updated it in Aug 2015......
you might have to sign up to read this.

a copy paste from the thread.
I am running regular Cobra C heads on my 5.4, which have lower intake flanges compared to a GT500 head. So after it was "possible" to get the GT500 intake to lower into place, I began taking measurements and mocking up for spacers. FYI, this IS NOT able to be done with Navigator heads, since the "bathtub" of the intake manifold will not fit down in the valley with those fat port flanges. I needed 3/4" to clear various parts of the timing cover and so on. So, I bought 3/4" 6061 slabs online and traced gaskets and began drilling. After about 20 hours of drilling, burring and tootsie rolling, I had my adapter plates. Man, using a CNC and CAD would have been nice!
another copy paste about required parts.
I can't use the GT500 valve covers, since I don't have the GT500's smaller timing chain sprockets.
translated "C" heads use larger timing chain cam gears over GT500 heads.

some of it doesn't make sense. i have always thought that the Navigator used the exact same heads as other "C" heads.
either way it looks like you MUST MAKE, or have some made, 3/4" adapter plates to make them work together.


if you want my OPINION. you would be better off $$$ wise, selling your "C" heads with valve covers. then buying a pair of cheap used 3V heads and valve covers. from my observations you should have $$ left over.
then buying DOB 5.4 intake and going that route. the intake is mildly $$$, $2900. but comparing it to buying a GT500 lower intake and other specific parts it would be cheaper going the 3V route.
if you do this or a similar one i would HIGHLY RECOMMEND buying a Gt500 oil pump or better yet a pair of HD oil pump gears. also recommend buying a lower timing chain gear also. with supercharged motors these STOCK non supercharged motor parts like to shatter and destroy motors at the worst times possible.

YES i understand the entire idea of your planned build is to make a budget GT500 look alike using 4V "C" head so it looks like a GT500 motor.

keep in mind using the 5.4 3V intake will give you MUCH better intake air cooling over the GT500 parts. with cooler intake air temps you can make more power at lower boost levels. also buying 3V engine harness will be much cheaper and probably easier to find than buying a GT500 one.
i am just throwing out the suggestion. it's your build so the decision is yours.

here is a pic of my 4.6 motor to help with the decision on look. when i upgrade to my stoker 5.4L+ motor i won't be able to use the strut brace..
YES i have that large and ugly alternator sticking out like a sore thumb. i have read others on the DOB facebook page have removed the A/C compressor and installed the alternator in it's place. i myself like the A/C over the alternator look.
Thank you so much everyone for the information. I am glad I came to this forum before putting big money into the project. My goal isn't really to make a tone of power. Just stock shelby numbers.

The more and more I look into it the more it looks like this is the issue. Same bolt patern, ports are smaller on the Nav head and the height of the valves in relation to the valley is a clearance issue for shelby intake. I've started looking into what would go into making a spacer that matches the ports as well as give me the clearance I need. I also have contacted DOB via Facebook and Modular Headshop and have not recieved an answer. They are probably very busy so I don't blame them.

Was hoping one of them could get me a quote on a spacer or even a whole intake setup that would be cheaper then the stock shelby intake. I can get the stock intake with intercooler for $1200 USD used and around $2000USD brand new. I love trying things on my own so I might make the spacer myself. The hours the guy put into making his spacer is reasonable for me just to have the experiance but one I have the cost of making a spacer I will make the final decision on if I will keep the Nav heads. Going away from the 4Valve setup is cheaper. There are so many cheap 5.4 3v truck engines put there at a fraction of the cost spacificly for me here up in Canada. Unfortunately I'm stubborn on that point. If the spacer or replacement intake is higher then purchases gt500 heads, I will sell my Nav heads and get gt500 heads.

The shitty part is all the parts I was looking to get on here are on hold till I figure out this spacer issue.

I also assume that if I was just to get the GT500 timing chain sprockets I could fite the gt500 valve covers.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
188 Posts
Thank you so much everyone for the information. I am glad I came to this forum before putting big money into the project. My goal isn't really to make a tone of power. Just stock shelby numbers.

The more and more I look into it the more it looks like this is the issue. Same bolt patern, ports are smaller on the Nav head and the height of the valves in relation to the valley is a clearance issue for shelby intake. I've started looking into what would go into making a spacer that matches the ports as well as give me the clearance I need. I also have contacted DOB via Facebook and Modular Headshop and have not recieved an answer. They are probably very busy so I don't blame them.

Was hoping one of them could get me a quote on a spacer or even a whole intake setup that would be cheaper then the stock shelby intake. I can get the stock intake with intercooler for $1200 USD used and around $2000USD brand new. I love trying things on my own so I might make the spacer myself. The hours the guy put into making his spacer is reasonable for me just to have the experiance but one I have the cost of making a spacer I will make the final decision on if I will keep the Nav heads. Going away from the 4Valve setup is cheaper. There are so many cheap 5.4 3v truck engines put there at a fraction of the cost spacificly for me here up in Canada. Unfortunately I'm stubborn on that point. If the spacer or replacement intake is higher then purchases gt500 heads, I will sell my Nav heads and get gt500 heads.

The shitty part is all the parts I was looking to get on here are on hold till I figure out this spacer issue.

I also assume that if I was just to get the GT500 timing chain sprockets I could fite the gt500 valve covers.

if you just want to make 500rwhp or less on pump gas that can be done in a weekends worth of work on a running installed 4.6 3V with a DOB intake. i have dome or helped do at least 10 installs thru the years. DOB makes a quality product. the problem is he is basically a 1 man show trying to do a 4 man job. he has hired extra help, but he is still really understaffed. because of this everything he does ends up being really slow to deliver.
if you want more info DOB has a dedicated website that has A LOT of data on just about everything you need to know about supercharging 3V, and coyote motors, heat exchangers and pumps. there is a lot of info so spending several hours reading might be worth your time.

as far as a spacers. from my research i have done on this swap NO ONE makes one and NO ONE HAS PLANS to make one either. you will have to make one on your own or pay someone to make one.
making one wouldn't really be that hard if you have the correct tools. as described in the thread from S197 forum all you have to do is trace gaskets from each head on to opposite sides of approximately $200 3/4" blocks of 6061 aluminum then remove everything inside of the port outlines. much easier said than done if you don't have the proper tools.
you might look into using a solid high density plastic, possibly Delrin® polymer plastic, instead of aluminum. machine would would certainly be easier. DOB uses something similar for his "HEAT BARRIERS" on his gen II intakes between the intake itself and the heads to significantly reduce heat transfer between themselves. my guess is you will have to find this on your own. i seriously doubt he will reveal his sources of this part.

if you can get a complete GT500 intake for $1200 USD you better jump on it fast. from my looking they usually sell for $1500+ in my area. i have seen some advertised for $2k+.
a complete intake has the intake, intercooler, belly pan coolant lines adapter bracket where the lines attach from the heat exchanger and there are tubes that go from the brackets thru the intake to the intercooler.

if you switch from navigator heads to GT500 heads. be prepared to pay $$$ and the original budget part of this project will be out the window. complete Gt500 heads in my area sell for $2500+ USED and probably will need repairs. there is a NEW set on Craigslist now that have been for sale for a while. the ask price is $4K down from his price of $5500 when he started.
in some ways it might be about the same $$$ or slightly more to just buy a complete GT500 motor with engine harness than to piece build your project as you are planning. it would be a significantly easier to do things this way.
in my area 9 thread "C" heads for $400-$700 depending on condition. fully reconditioned ones are sometimes $2K or more.

i hate to sound so negative. but a couple of years ago i seriously looked into doing a similar project myself. i found i didn't have the time or the $$$ to do it.
i also looked into making spacers to put a 4.6 intake on a 5.4 block so i could make a mega CI 3V motor for my bullitt. after several years of of pleading DOB finally decided to make one. they are in the tooling stages now.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
19 Posts
Discussion Starter #19 (Edited)
if you just want to make 500rwhp or less on pump gas that can be done in a weekends worth of work on a running installed 4.6 3V with a DOB intake. i have dome or helped do at least 10 installs thru the years. DOB makes a quality product. the problem is he is basically a 1 man show trying to do a 4 man job. he has hired extra help, but he is still really understaffed. because of this everything he does ends up being really slow to deliver.
if you want more info DOB has a dedicated website that has A LOT of data on just about everything you need to know about supercharging 3V, and coyote motors, heat exchangers and pumps. there is a lot of info so spending several hours reading might be worth your time.

as far as a spacers. from my research i have done on this swap NO ONE makes one and NO ONE HAS PLANS to make one either. you will have to make one on your own or pay someone to make one.
making one wouldn't really be that hard if you have the correct tools. as described in the thread from S197 forum all you have to do is trace gaskets from each head on to opposite sides of approximately $200 3/4" blocks of 6061 aluminum then remove everything inside of the port outlines. much easier said than done if you don't have the proper tools.
you might look into using a solid high density plastic, possibly Delrin® polymer plastic, instead of aluminum. machine would would certainly be easier. DOB uses something similar for his "HEAT BARRIERS" on his gen II intakes between the intake itself and the heads to significantly reduce heat transfer between themselves. my guess is you will have to find this on your own. i seriously doubt he will reveal his sources of this part.

if you can get a complete GT500 intake for $1200 USD you better jump on it fast. from my looking they usually sell for $1500+ in my area. i have seen some advertised for $2k+.
a complete intake has the intake, intercooler, belly pan coolant lines adapter bracket where the lines attach from the heat exchanger and there are tubes that go from the brackets thru the intake to the intercooler.

if you switch from navigator heads to GT500 heads. be prepared to pay $$$ and the original budget part of this project will be out the window. complete Gt500 heads in my area sell for $2500+ USED and probably will need repairs. there is a NEW set on Craigslist now that have been for sale for a while. the ask price is $4K down from his price of $5500 when he started.
in some ways it might be about the same $$$ or slightly more to just buy a complete GT500 motor with engine harness than to piece build your project as you are planning. it would be a significantly easier to do things this way.
in my area 9 thread "C" heads for $400-$700 depending on condition. fully reconditioned ones are sometimes $2K or more.

i hate to sound so negative. but a couple of years ago i seriously looked into doing a similar project myself. i found i didn't have the time or the $$$ to do it.
i also looked into making spacers to put a 4.6 intake on a 5.4 block so i could make a mega CI 3V motor for my bullitt. after several years of of pleading DOB finally decided to make one. they are in the tooling stages now.
Yeah the prices that I was looking at for the intake are in the $700s for uper intake and $300 for lower. At second glance it does not include the intercooler which looks like after adding all the parts that make up that system comes to around another $1000 new. TBH I wouldn't be surprised if its refurbished.

I have someone local that will do fabricating for a case of beer and showing me/getting me to do some of it. Just the cost of materials for it now. Its worth it for me to try. If it doesn't pan out it won't set me back too much.

I will look at DOBs website and read up on it. I watched a YouTube series of someone doing it to their 3v s197 and it was really good numbers. Bolt on and a tune making 460hp at the wheels. Pretty much exactly the numbers of the shelbys in those years. Don't know why I'm so hooked on the going with a 4valve. I think I just like how clean it lookes under the hood.

I'm going to try and make a decision fast though. There are a few purchases I'd like to make and want to pull the trigger with them while they are avaiable.

I do like what DOB is doing; is he ex military or something? The logo, the name just kind of feels like he's from the community.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
188 Posts
i couldn't tell you about the military part.
i do know he was part of the Ford racing team when they developed the cobra jet drag race cars. i also think he was involved with the Ford FR500 road racing car program.


i might be a little biased because i have been involved with a LOT of DOB builds including my own car. in my OPINION the DOB is one of the best HP bang for the $$$ mods out there. it's really isn't hard to build one. just take your time, read the instruction a couple of times and double check your work and a total noob can do the mods. there is a guy in i think brazil that remote tunes them really well for not a lot of $$$. if you pick up deals you can easily be making 500rwhp on pump gas for around $3-4k and it's daily OEM drive able reliability. you could easily go higher but the stock powdered rods will not handle any more. upgrade the rods and pistons they are hitting around 700 rwhp with the stock crank .upgrade the crank and the sky's the limit. i built my combo for that and i make 650 rwhp on pump gas. on race gas i am estimating about 800+, and yes i have a forged crank.
the best part is you aren't stuck with 1 combo. you can easily build , then upgrade without really having to buy a lot of extra parts, a lot like the GT500 cars because you are basically using their parts for the build. and when you buy them they are dirt cheap because there really isn't a lot of uses for take off GT500 parts.
 
1 - 20 of 26 Posts
Top