Need Upgrade Help Advice (pulley, port, intake, tune injectors, headers)

2594 Views 79 Replies 15 Participants Last post by Baloney Pony, 10 d ago

Blue Not Black

Discussion Starter · 1 mo ago

So I'm fixing to start upgrading my 21 and I have a list of mods I want to do to it. I would like to get some feedback on what I need now vs what can wait to be bought and installed later. I've been reading and it appears that the fuel rails could be added later, and the Gforce axles upgraded later. Anything else I'm missing or other suggestions?

Stainless Works headers	2" x 3" headers
Lethal Performance resonator delete	H-Pipe delete
Nitto (front 305/35R20)	NT555 G2
Nitto (rear, 315/35R20)	NT555 RII
Kong 108mm Throttle Body	108 Billet
Injector Dynamics	ID1300x
NKG Iridium IX	LTR7IX-11
Palm Beach Motorsport	Heat Exchanger
Whipple Superchargers	1" - 1" Intercooler
SPE	IC Manifold - Whipple
SPE	Thermostat
LP Griptec	2.5" Pulley Kit
Gates 8 Rib HD Belt	K080670HD
SPE	Fuel Rail Kit
Whipple Superchargers	Belt Tensironer
Jokerz Performance	SC porting
Gforce Performance	FOR10115A Axles
SPE	Vertical Links
Kelltrac	IRS Subframe Posi-Loc
Palm Beach Motorsport	Tuning

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GT500info

· #61 · 1 mo ago (Edited)

Blue Not Black said:
After some back and fourth this morning with PBD, I think I’m going to stick with the ported whipple setup. The TT was going to be another $10k before install over that of the whipple.

Going to go with a 3.65 pulley for 93 tune and step down to a 3.5 for e85 tune. The e85 with the ported blower should get my close if not just over the 1100rwhp mark. Luckily they both use the same belt so a simple pulley swap will be as easy as taking out the 5 bolts.

Anyone happen to know what the drivetrain % loss is on these cars? So say if you make 1100rwhp what’s the HP at the crank?

The "base"

Daves500 said:
To make 1100 whp i would guess you need 1170-1200 at the crank …..

There's lots of factors here that can swing this "dyno" pendulum.

-Cats vs Catless & PBD absolutely will not do a catless car I went back and forth on this with them (less backpressure / less peak boost / more power)
-RPM over stock limiter, you are essentially the end user.
-Leave it alone @7500 or go full party to 8500

These things alone on this setup can swing
100+whp

These whipple cars that are 100% open and free flowing will net more power than continuing to pulley down and add multiple pounds of boost.

A perfect example
-Kelly Aiken's car the orange 3.8 CFTP his car was big time lower on the dyno with every pulley (stock headers & cats) it's a bottleneck

Kelly's car:
-3.8 upper pulley on 93
820rwhp @8500
my car same pulley 2" headers and catless
915rwhp on 93 and my redline is lower @8000 that's a massive difference.

Then they step all the way down to a 3.25 pulley on E85 @8500 and 1039whp at 22lbs of boost.
Me I'm back here on the 3.8 upper pulley five pounds of boost less making literally the same power 1029whp @8000 cut off 500 rpm lower.

Free flowing / unrestricted is the answer not always adding all the boost.

Headers and catless the setup you're looking at should very easily surpass 1100rwhp.

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Evolvd

· #62 · 1 mo ago

Blue Not Black said:
After some back and fourth this morning with PBD, I think I’m going to stick with the ported whipple setup. The TT was going to be another $10k before install over that of the whipple.

Going to go with a 3.65 pulley for 93 tune and step down to a 3.5 for e85 tune. The e85 with the ported blower should get my close if not just over the 1100rwhp mark. Luckily they both use the same belt so a simple pulley swap will be as easy as taking out the 5 bolts.

Anyone happen to know what the drivetrain % loss is on these cars? So say if you make 1100rwhp what’s the HP at the crank?

Wait you said 10K OVER the cost of a whipple? How’s that possible? I know there’s tons of options and I can see a fully optioned setup costing $17K but not just to reach 1100hp.

Blue Not Black

Discussion Starter · #63 · 1 mo ago

Evolvd said:
Wait you said 10K OVER the cost of a whipple? How’s that possible? I know there’s tons of options and I can see a fully optioned setup costing $17K but not just to reach 1100hp.

Without going into great detail the whipple setup came in less than $20k. The Hellion TT with PBD upgrades including twin 64’s came to $30k

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Evolvd

· #64 · 1 mo ago

Blue Not Black said:
Without going into great detail the whipple setup came in less than $20k. The Hellion TT with PBD upgrades including twin 64’s came to $30k

Yeah it doesn’t seem so bad until you include labor lol. I’ve been buying pieces of my build for the last year so the hit to the wallet wasn’t so bad. Still gonna cost me about $6K to have it all installed and tuned!

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Blue Not Black

Discussion Starter · #65 · 1 mo ago

Placed the order for the whipple today through PBD. I can’t say enough about those guys, and Mike who I was working with. He went out of his way to get the sale. Now comes the hurry and wait part lol.

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Blue Not Black

Discussion Starter · #66 · 17 d ago

Ok guys. Let’s talk about octane booster. So PBD recommends no lower than 3.65 for a 93 tune. I’m assuming anything lower and there is too much boost for the fuel. So what about using something like Boostane or Torco to up the octane? Could I go with a smaller pulley like 3.375 and then run 3.25 for e85. Both use the same belt so no belt swapping.

AZ21GT500

· #67 · 17 d ago

Blue Not Black said:
Ok guys. Let’s talk about octane booster. So PBD recommends no lower than 3.65 for a 93 tune. I’m assuming anything lower and there is too much boost for the fuel. So what about using something like Boostane or Torco to up the octane? Could I go with a smaller pulley like 3.375 and then run 3.25 for e85. Both use the same belt so no belt swapping.

I’ve always been cautioned about using octane booster besides in an emergency like a gas station only having 87 when you have 5 miles to empty. I have an emergency bottle in the trunk for that exact reason only. I wouldn’t use it long term though. YMMV it’s probably a bomb subject 🤣

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GT500info

· #68 · 17 d ago

I'm curious with the 3.65 how much timing they are pulling to keep it safe on 93 that's likely 19ish+ pounds of boost in the upper rpms.

What's torco net octane with 10-12 gallons of 93? I'm not even sure.... The last time I dumped a bottle of torco into a car was back in 2004-2005 on a 04' Cobra. And I'm pretty sure I wasn't making anywhere near 19lbs of boost.

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Blue Not Black

Discussion Starter · #69 · 15 d ago

2

GT500info said:
I'm curious with the 3.65 how much timing they are pulling to keep it safe on 93 that's likely 19ish+ pounds of boost in the upper rpms.

What's torco net octane with 10-12 gallons of 93? I'm not even sure.... The last time I dumped a bottle of torco into a car was back in 2004-2005 on a 04' Cobra. And I'm pretty sure I wasn't making anywhere near 19lbs of boost.

sorry for the late reply. Here is the info that Torco has posted.

I’ve got a call with Ken Monday to ask about this or mixing something like MS109 with 93.

Also found this chart for the Whipple 3.8 pulley boost sizes.

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Blue Not Black

Discussion Starter · #70 · 14 d ago

Spoke to Ken just a few minutes ago and asked a few questions.

1. His take on octane booster like Torco is its ok every now and then, but if you want high octane buy it from a reputable dealer like VP Fuels, etc.

2. He agreed that 3.65 would be the lowest pulley he would go on 93. He has tuned cars with a Whipple and that size pulley, should net low 900's with it. He said with the lower compression of these cars help with getting as much out of them as possible. He also mentioned that it being ported will help with efficiency.

3. Asked about ditching the Whipple for a TT setup. He said that while you can make more power on the TT setup, they are 10x harder to install and so much has to be switched to make it happen. If you're looking to break records with high HP, then TT would be the way to go.

Currently researching high octane gases, but most likely will stick with 93 since its readily available here.

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MOT26

· #71 · 14 d ago (Edited)

Blue Not Black said:
Spoke to Ken just a few minutes ago and asked a few questions.

1. His take on octane booster like Torco is its ok every now and then, but if you want high octane buy it from a reputable dealer like VP Fuels, etc.

2. He agreed that 3.65 would be the lowest pulley he would go on 93. He has tuned cars with a Whipple and that size pulley, should net low 900's with it. He said with the lower compression of these cars help with getting as much out of them as possible. He also mentioned that it being ported will help with efficiency.

3. Asked about ditching the Whipple for a TT setup. He said that while you can make more power on the TT setup, they are 10x harder to install and so much has to be switched to make it happen. If you're looking to break records with high HP, then TT would be the way to go.

Currently researching high octane gases, but most likely will stick with 93 since its readily available here.

VP is mucho dinero (but good stuff). You are lucky to have 93, around here it is 91.
I was once told that a ported Whipple was only good for bragging rights. Go figure.

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Blue Not Black

Discussion Starter · #72 · 14 d ago

MOT26 said:
VP is mucho dinero (but good stuff). You are lucky to have 93, around here it is 91.
I was once told that a ported Whipple was only good for bragging rights. Go figure.

You aren't kidding. Here is the pricing before shipping that I've been able to find. This is for high octane.

Manufacturer	Fuel Name	MON	RON	R+M/2	Oxygen Content	Price per 54/55 barrel
VP Racing Fuels	MS109	99	109	104	9.32%	$1,172.00
VP Racing Fuels	MS109 REG	100	111	105.5	9.32%	$1,118.00
Sunoco Race Fuels	260GT	95	105	100	4%	$565.65
Sunoco Race Fuels	260 GT Plus	98	110	104	4.70%	$707.70
Sunoco Race Fuels	EVO 10	100	110	105	10%	$828.90
Torco Race Fuels	105	101	109	105	9.12%	$845.00
Torco Race Fuels	108	102	112	108	0%	$750.00
Renegade	HR102	99	105	102		$786.58
Renegade	HR104XP+	99	109	104	4.80%	$783.88
Renegade	RM109	100	114	107	9.60%	$1,083.58
F&L	SP107	100	114	107	9.60%
ETS Racing Fuels	XPRODRAG 3	95	108	101.5	8.70%	$1,213.70
ETS Racing Fuels	PX11	98	110	104	7.70%

This is what I've been able to find for E85 or E98

Manufacturer	Fuel Name	MON	RON	R+M/2	Oxygen Content	Price per 54/55 barrel
VP Racing	C85	86.5	106	96.3	31.97%	$755.00
VP Racing	X85	95.2	108	101.6	30.03%	$557.00
VP Racing	X98	>120	103	>111.5	34.73%	$642.00
Sunoco	E85-R 99	94	104	99	30%	$443.52
Torco	T98	95	111	103	34.80%	$540.00
Torco	T85	92	108	100	30%	$485.00
One Ethanol	S			112		$395.00
Ignite Racing Fuels	E98					$1,200.00
Renegade Fuels	PRO98	91	107	99		$491.20

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Catmonkey

· #73 · 13 d ago

MOT26 said:
VP is mucho dinero (but good stuff). You are lucky to have 93, around here it is 91.
I was once told that a ported Whipple was only good for bragging rights. Go figure.

I said porting a 3.8 Whipple to run pump gas isn’t going to gain much of anything, hence the bragging rights comment. That’s quite different than what you’re implying. If you’re putting out 1,200 hp, there might be some benefit to a port job. But to even be able to run pump gas with the largest pulley made for it, is likely to decrease efficiency at the lower end of the envelope. If you have data to the contrary post it up. if you have money burning a hole in your wallet, by all means port it.

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MOT26

· #74 · 13 d ago

Catmonkey said:
I said porting a 3.8 Whipple to run pump gas isn’t going to gain much of anything, hence the bragging rights comment. That’s quite different than what you’re implying. If you’re putting out 1,200 hp, there might be some benefit to a port job. But to even be able to run pump gas with the largest pulley made for it, is likely to decrease efficiency at the lower end of the envelope. If you have data to the contrary post it up. if you have money burning a hole in your wallet, by all means port it.

What makes you think that I was talking about you?
Ken and his team say that a ported blower helps with efficiency. (I'm a nobody so I don't count).
You want me to post data? You are saying that Ken and PBD are wrong... So show us your numbers and sway us kind Sir.

Blue Not Black

Discussion Starter · #75 · 12 d ago (Edited)

3

Goodies are starting to roll in…

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Catmonkey

· #76 · 11 d ago

MOT26 said:
What makes you think that I was talking about you?
Ken and his team say that a ported blower helps with efficiency. (I'm a nobody so I don't count).
You want me to post data? You are saying that Ken and PBD are wrong... So show us your numbers and sway us kind Sir.

I don't think they're wrong, but I'm not naive enough to believe gains in efficiency won't be in the upper rpm range at something north of the mid-20 psi range. Pullied for 17-18 psi on 93 and it's likely to lose power over the unported Whipple blower in the mid-range and possibly at the peak.

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MOT26

· #77 · 11 d ago

Catmonkey said:
I don't think they're wrong, but I'm not naive enough to believe gains in efficiency won't be in the upper rpm range at something north of the mid-20 psi range. Pullied for 17-18 psi on 93 and it's likely to lose power over the unported Whipple blower in the mid-range and possibly at the peak.

That is a possibility.

Blue Not Black

Discussion Starter · #78 · 10 d ago

2

I posted this above but for anyone that may be looking I've done quite of bit of research on high octane and E85/98 fuels. I've arranged them from highest octane to lowest. If there is another company that you recommend, I'll be glad to add it to the list.

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Baloney Pony

· #79 · 10 d ago

Catmonkey said:
I don't think they're wrong, but I'm not naive enough to believe gains in efficiency won't be in the upper rpm range at something north of the mid-20 psi range. Pullied for 17-18 psi on 93 and it's likely to lose power over the unported Whipple blower in the mid-range and possibly at the peak.

Stiegemeier Ported Whipple results!

Hello all. There has been a ton of expectations and anticipation for the results. So here is the information I have at this point. I went to St Louis to pick up the car on Saturday. And saw the dyno graphs, pictures and notes. One important note. The porting was to the Whipple case as well as...

www.svtperformance.com

Old Whipple but interesting nonetheless.

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Baloney Pony

· #80 · 10 d ago

I vote to port it. Buy once, cry once. You'll always second guess if you don't.

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