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Torque Arm

16K views 117 replies 17 participants last post by  meterman 
#1 ·
I have been doing some suspension research and I am looking at the CoteX Racing torque arm and watts link. Does anybody have experience with this setup? It looks like it's not that bad of an install on jack stands but I would appreciate opinions on the installation as well. I live in central FL and the closest guys certified to install are in NC. I was originally just looking at doing the TA but you need the differential cover that goes with their watts link to make it work. You can buy just the diff cover but I have always been disappointed with the UPR "on car adjustable" (needs to be unbolted to adjust) PHB so I thought why not put in the watts link too. After learning about the TA I don't know why more people don't go this route rather than trying to get the UCA to work. Maybe it's because the upgraded UCAs came out first. Anyway if I am missing something on that please let me know. Seems like a no brainer on cars with higher HP but then again since not a lot of people have them maybe the pitfalls are missing from the real story and all that's out there is marketing. The marketing makes some good points though. Thoughts?
 
#2 ·
I did a Watts link, but not torque arms. My Fay's 2 was a bit of a challenge to get dialed-in. Each time I had to correct it, I basically had to uninstall it since a bolt/nut that needed tweaking was hidden. I also had to fill the trunk with weights to get the car to squat-down to get access to some adjustments. In the end, I got it right and got to play under the car. All good.

Good luck with your project. You can do it!
 
#4 · (Edited)
#5 · (Edited)
I still haven't figured out if I want Griggs or. Cortex. I don't have any loyalty / investment in either company yet. I have read all of the debates about Griggs vs CorteX. I just need to keep researching and asking advice until I figure out if one manufacture meets my needs better than the other in the long run not just for these two parts.
I looked at some of your old posts and you seem to be quite experienced with Griggs. Maybe you can help me figure something out with their front end package. My question is: is it possible to do their SLA without running into the turn radius problem? Is it always necessary to replace the steering? How does the steer by wire in my 2012 fit into that equation?
 
#6 ·
Revan is about 200 miles from Orlando. Not horrible for a one time trip. Nearest CorteX installed is 500. Still doable but either could be a nightmare if I end up having to go back because something wasn't right. I'm leaning towards doing it myself so I understand what's under my car and make adjustments if needed.
 
#8 ·
I think Revan has done quite a few installs, they will probably have no issues. I would have my new springs and alignment done first and settled in so the can set your pinion angle right at OEM Specs.
 
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#7 ·
I never did the SLA. I am street and HPDE Only, not competitive track use.

On my '14 I used BMR lowering springs, stock 3-way controlled dampers, BMR LCA's and the Griggs Torque arm and Watts link.

I removed the UCA entirely. I did do the SA bump steer rod ends and sway bar links but all else is stock. Considering camber castor plates.

Bruce Griggs will answer phone calls and e-mail questions pretty quickly. He will not try to up sell you. First time I talked to him he thought the Watts was overkill, (thought the torque arm was the most bang for the buck) but I wanted it and it works as advertised
 
#9 ·
That's good to know they don't try and sell you stuff that won't ever make a difference. I feel the same about the watts link. I'm not sure it makes a big difference unless you throw the car around on a regular basis and a second or two makes a difference to you. It is more of a want for me too. I know myself and I will eventually end up replacing my poorly designed "adjustable" panhard bar just because it's a reminder that I got taken every time I am under the car. When you look at replacing the diff cover and panhard you are halfway to the watts link anyway monetarily. So basically the watts link is an extra 500 bucks worth of eye candy.

On a side note, I don't want the underside of the car to start looking like a bag of skittles with all the different color parts. Do you know of a spray paint that would be durable enough to paint suspension parts with?
 
#10 ·
I think the Watts really made a huge difference. Not just eye candy. The single biggest difference is how much more planted the car stays to the road when hitting rough patches.

Griggs comes Hammerite gun metal gray (Except the one anodized blue spider plate).

I think that is also available in cans and different colors. I think they do it with a compressed gun;



Next I would look at P.O.R.
.
 
#11 ·
Thanks for the link. Doesn't look like it would be a big deal to paint that one part. The rest of my stuff is either silver or black so none of it should really look odd. I keep flip flopping between Griggs and CorteX. I wish I could find info comparing and contrasting the two. It's hard to figure out flipping back and forth between websites. I guess when I get some time I will sit down and write it out myself and then post it for the next guy.
 
#12 ·
Griggs will anodize the Spider plate black too.

Here is my take.

Cortex is easier to install and less $.

They are ex-Griggs employees, in fact, their guy Collin is who I worked with at Griggs on my first Griggs purchase.

Griggs is a more robust design. Every thing is beefier and the 3 attachment points are welded. That makes it less easy to install, but IMO. a better design. I also think their Watts plate is more securely supported on the axle.

Would the additional toughness be needed off the track? Not sure I can answer that.

Griggs has been building these for about 25 years. But that doesn't mean the Cortex isn't good.

I think forum member Bad Company went Cortex and was happy.

Update us when you get further.
 
#14 ·
Yes I went with CorteX. I have the Watts Link, TA, LCA, and LCA brackets with the stock Bilstien adjustable dampers and FRPP M-5300-L springs. At this point the car has the stock K-Member, front LCAs and bushings. The transformation in handling is worth the investment in my opinion. If you like to drive aggressively on a twisty road these mods are the best for that. Also look at Maximum Motorsports K-Member, it revises the roll center of the front suspension, plus the K-Member is much stiffer than the factory one. You won't lose any weight with it. It retains the stock LCAs which have proven to be the strongest out there, plus FRPP does have replacement poly bushings if you really feel the need to get the most out of the car without going to a SLA front suspension conversion.


The down side of any TA installation no matter which brand you chose is that a TA isn't designed for drag race launches with a DR or slick. This is one reason most people go with the UCA in the rear. Also many drag race classes forbid changing the location of the mounting points for the rear axle in the chassis of the car, something a TA does in major way. You can modify the pick up points of the rear suspension, but you can't move them. For these two reason with the TA not many people have much experience with the TA and it is why you don't see much discussion about them. On these forums it seems everybody is interested in getting the car to launch better or have better traction in a straight line and they're not worried about how they can accelerate better off of a corner where the TA shines. With the TA you'll be able to throttle into the engine much sooner as you exit the corner. Also if the corner has a bump or off camber hump that will unload the rear suspension at the apex or later in the corner, the TA will recover the rear tire grip much quicker, whereas the stock set up no matter who's parts you use won't recover grip fast and you may take a long slide to parts unknown or unintended. The TA doesn't allow the Instant Center of the suspension geometry to change as the suspension modulates, the stock system does. The Watts Link doesn't allow the Roll Center to change whereas the Panhard Bar does. These two things in the stock system will cause the loss of tire traction/grip if they're constantly moving while you're driving at the limits of the rear tire grip while trying to also accelerate. A tire's traction is actually a sum of different things when you're asking it to do more than one thing at the same time.......like accelerating and turning at the same time. When the suspension geometry is moving both the IC and RC while pushing the limits, you will be slower versus a suspension that doesn't allow movement of these critical points in suspension geometry
 
#15 ·
I don't really see a down side. Seems like the best solution. I started to look into drag racing but it seems NHRA would require a roll cage anyway due to the hp these cars make when you start modifying. If I went to the strip it would probably be just for test and tune night to feel the car out safely. I drive my car everyday and I feel that the modifications to drag race are too task specific for what I want for my car. I am going to Track Attack with my brother in August. He got a free trip as part of the deal when he bought a 350 last year. I think thats the direction I will go with my car. Enjoy it everyday around town and start participating in some HPDE.

I re-read your post where you and Van debated the CorteX copying Griggs drama. I still don't care if it's a copy or not what got me looking at CorteX was what you mentioned about customer service. Has anything changed on that front with either company? If you prefer to message me that's fine too. Thanks for your information.
 
#16 ·
CorteX is similar to Griggs in many ways, the big difference is in how CorteX mounts the Watts Link directly to the rear cover to save unsprung weight over the Griggs method. I don't remember the weight difference but there is one with CorteX being the lighter of the two methods.

I like the CorteX TA because of the fact the front mount is solid bushing and isn't a rubber bushing as the Grigg's piece and it doesn't deflect. This is how a true TA is made for a racing application and it is what created the major differences of opinion in that thread.

Unfortunately I haven't had a reason to use Cortex's customer due to the fact my car has been sidelined with a blown engine for a looooonnnnngggg time. I believe nothing with customer service has changed with CorteX. The main reason I was told Filip at CorteX started making his own products was because he couldn't get customer support from Griggs to support his shop's customers needs.
 
#17 ·
I haven't heard anything bad about CorteX customer service. I have read several comments online that a few people were dissatisfied with Griggs which is odd because there website mentions several times that they support customers after the sale and help them tune their suspensions by answering questions and giving advice. It's hard to tell since you only have half the story. I guess the best answer will be when I call each one. I'll do that soon.

It's really difficult to cut through all the bull****. I just read a article on Griggs website where they say that heim joints are better than poly and rubber for a bunch of good reasons and then you look at the joint they use on the TA and it contradicts that. I also was pricing the watts link on their site and I noticed that the "quiet" poly arms for the watts are much more expensive than the heim jointed arms only to find another article on their site that says their is barely a difference in noise between the two and the heim joint outlast the poly and requires less maintenance.

I'll dig into the CorteX site some more and see if I can sort out their offerings.

How is that solid mount on the CorteX TA? Can you offer a description of the NVH?

Sorry to hear about the blown engine. Was it a rod? Rebuild or replace?
 
#20 ·
Heim joints are very noisy. Both because the can clunk when loading and unloading and because they transmit NVH of other components into the unibody. The more solid your connections, the more responsive the car will be.

I think the confusion on the Griggs site is a proofreading error. They will tell you if you are mostly on the street, use bushings (or at least on one end of the LCA's and Watt's arms) will be the best choice.

I think Griggs went thru a rough patch a few years ago, I think their customer service has improved recently. I do think they are a pretty small business tho, some times it has been a day before I heard back.
 
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#22 · (Edited)
Heim joints are very noisy. Both because the can clunk when loading and unloading and because they transmit NVH of other components into the unibody. The more solid your connections, the more responsive the car will be.



I think the confusion on the Griggs site is a proofreading error. They will tell you if you are mostly on the street, use bushings (or at least on one end of the LCA's and Watt's arms) will be the best choice.



I think Griggs went thru a rough patch a few years ago, I think their customer service has improved recently. I do think they are a pretty small business tho, some times it has been a day before I heard back.


I don't think it was a misprint. The discussion was about how their heim joint are preloaded during manufacturing so there is some resistance to motion initially after install but they soon break in and have little resistance and the preload prevents clunk and rattle. As far as transmission of noise through the chassis they claim that the mounting locations of the joints are not real sensitive to transmitting noise and vibration to the driver location. Furthermore, they say that since the bell crank is somewhat insulated from the differential you don't get much gear noise making it to the arms. He concluded by saying the difference in noise between the two is almost negligible and that the compromise of the bushing on the arms for the watts link wasn't worth any possible gain in NVH. I was as confused as you probably were when you read my post. The only conclusion I can draw is that the arms on the watts link are an exception to the heim/bushing NVH guidance for street setups.
 
#23 ·
BadCompany, everything you said in that last point agrees with what I was thinking as far as a direction for the use of the car determining the selection of parts.

What happened to your engine is horrible. You deserve compensation but we all know that won't happen. This type of thing has happened to me many times thankfully not at such a high cost. It's why I put such a high value on customer service. If customer service sucks it's generally an indicator that the product sucked first.
 
#24 ·
Bad, I don't remember what tires you are on now. The OEM tires will play a huge roll in street harshness as well.

I bought both Griggs set ups directly from Griggs. I do think they are better now than before, as you say, they got a wake-up call.
 
#25 ·
After rereading my earlier post I may have mislead you to believe that CorteX in using a cheaper quality rod end, I should have clarified the CorteX is using high quality heims joints with a dry film lubricant to reduce wear and friction as they move. This type of joint keeps dirt from infiltrating as quickly. And it doesn't create as much transmission of NVH to the cabin of the car.

No mater what you choose, you're going to get some NVH if you go with any of these products with full heim joints. The problem with a bushing at one end and a rod end at the other is that it makes it harder to make adjustments, especially the LCAs for thrust angle. The other thing is a bushing creates friction in the pivot point over the rod end bearing, which doesn't allow the suspension to react as quickly to changes. You use them as a damper to limit noise, but at the same time they act as a damper to limit suspension movement.

The engine failure taught me a number of things at a high cost. The main reason it is taking so long to put back together is that I'm not a racer. I'm just a regular guy with no schedule of completion and my build has been pushed back for people that have a race schedules that have to be met. I'm to the point of I'm too deep into it to stop now, but I'm really not enthused one way or the other about it anymore. I've gotten into shooting pistols a lot and this is where I've spent my time and energy in the last few years. Unfortunately they can be as costly as one of these cars if you let yourself get addicted to them and throw a lot of lead down range. I'm averaging more than 40K rounds a year in ammo alone.........that is an addiction LOL
 
#27 ·
The Griggs website says they preload the rod ends during manufacturing. I assume this means they are tighter and therefore don't clunk as much. I wonder if that is just marketing. I can't imagine that CorteX would go to all the trouble of making a competing product just to have it be inferior by throwing cheap links on it.

I didn't take your post to mean that you thought the CorteX rod ends were bad.

I understand the gun addiction. If it wasn't for my renewed interest in the car after doing the VMP 820 kit I would be blowing the money on a fnx tactical 45 or a colt ar. I am down to just a few pistols (sig p229 .40 by the bed and a old school stainless colt 380 government model in the car). But that's kind of like telling an alcoholic that you understand because you have a beer every Saturday...haha. Your averaging more than 100 rounds a day!
 
#29 ·
The only thing Griggs can be referring to is the rod ends with the dry lubricant in them. This is actually a thin film or in some cases a layer of a very hard liner that can handle a ton of abuse and load as a dry lubricant. This does limit wear and dirt entry into the bearing surface while making the bearing and ball feel stiff to move.........or in Griggs words pre-loaded when new. I've used them in some unbelievably harsh environments with serious amounts of load and repetitions without failures. But these usually cost close to $100 for 1/2" right hand thread and $125 for left hand threads with a aircraft military spec.

I never did the math to figure out what the daily round count average is. I go to the range at least once a week and try to stay at 700 rounds per outing, unfortunately if work gets on my nerves I'll go multiple times in a week to get away from the aggravation of dealing with people that don't listen. I can usually go through 700 rounds in less than 2 hours if I don't collect the brass. Don't tell my wife I'm shooting up more than a 100 rounds a day LOL

My addiction is the Infinity Wide Body and the STI 2011 varieties.

6" bushing barrel 9mm



5.4" Sight Tracker 40 Cal



DVC Open 9mm Major PF



Plus a bunch of other stuff.

Bedside is a 357 S&W 686PC 2.5" snubby...... with an AR in the closet.

Yeah........I've got an addiction.......a bad addiction LOL
 
#32 ·
I emailed Griggs and CorteX to test the waters on customer service. Bruce and Flip both responded. Flip actually got back to me within a few hours on a Sunday / Father's Day. Bruce responded on Monday evening. Both provided personal recommendations on someone to install the products which was the nature of both emails.
I keep leaning toward the CorteX parts but only because it looks like a much more integrated (supposed to be their) design. I keep telling myself it's about the performance not about how it looks but if everything else was equal that would be the tipping point. Plus I don't think I would attempt the Griggs install myself due to the welding and fabrication required. The CorteX I think I could handle. I would like to support Griggs since they were the original for this car but the CorteX seems to be more refined for the s197 where the Griggs seems in my opinion to be adapted from earlier generations for the s197.

I do have another question. Is the pinion angle now set from the LCAs? If I put in different springs and dampeners later which potentially may change the ride height, how/do I need to, reset the pinion angle? Also does the 2012 need the friction modifier in the diff oil?
 
#33 ·
with Griggs system, the torque arm mounting sets your pinion angle. That is why you want your ride height determined ahead of mounting.

I believe with any non-Torsen differential, you add friction modifier. Not positive.
 
#51 ·
I talked to Filip yesterday and specifically asked him if I need to adjust the pinion angle with a TA and I did hear him correctly, with my 1 piece drive shaft I will NOT have to adjust the pinion angle when installing the TA. He said when you remove the UCA the TA will take care of the pinion angle.
 
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